Back to top Alert abuse. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Top podcast episodes Hes referred to the son of Joseph in Johns gospel. The only son? And so to say, who believed the exact same way that I believed? Well, first of all, I want to thank you, Matt, for having me on, for hosting this debate and for all that, and for everyone affiliated with Pints with Aquinas. Yet, if Mary did not inherit the stain of original sin passed down from Adam, she would not have died and therefore no need to rescue her from death before her earthly life ended. And then Steve, because Steve, I can tell that youve really wrestled with what Catholicism teaches. So before she could go into heaven and have a heavenly body, she had to be rid of them, and thats why the apostle Paul says that we were like Adam and we also, which includes Mary, we also are heavenly. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. Pauls letters were occasional, and the scriptural texts that he cited and used were determined largely by the circumstances in which he was writing. The son of Jonah? No, because their issue with Rome was about the sole authority of scripture over the sole authority of the church. Trent had mentioned about Elijah and Enoch being assumed to heaven. And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. It talks about the universality of sin, like in Romans 3:23, All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But Paul is talking about the universality of personal sin between Jews and non-Jews. Catholic answers the firms that while Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin, yet she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam, such as death. This means not only was she conceived sinless, but remained sinless her entire life. Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie - The Council, Necessitarianism: Conceive of the Possibilities. Agreed. I think thats really terrific. So lets tie all of this up a little bit. My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. Yeah, sure. Its free to watch the podcast. Oct 10 My debate against Dr Robert Sungenis has been RESCHEDULED for Tues Nov 8 at 8pm EST: youtube.com 1644440684524367. steve.christie@phmloans.com. And if you take a look at the origin of all three of these dogmas, they all come from either nastic like text or apocryphal literature or [inaudible 01:29:53] literature, like the Protoevangelium of James and elsewhere. Thank you and God bless everyone. Perhaps John witnessed this event and then told others or this may have been given to John through some other kind of revelation. Well, Matt, thank you so much for hosting this debate, Steve, thank you very much for agreeing to debate me again. I didnt talk about sister-in-law. And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. What about the deuterocanonical books of Scripture written in the 400 years before Christs birth? Its a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I think youd really enjoy it. Steve Christie is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. And Id probably want to make Peter the rock of the church. Yeah. Steve will point to Jesus in sacred scripture. So maybe you could focus on the other three, which obviously you disagree with all these three Marion dogmas, but which do you think would be the easiest for you to get on board with? And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. Should it be included in the Old Testament canon? Lets see. In Luke 3:1 its used to describe Herod Antipas and Herod Philip who had the same father, but they were born of different mothers, just as Jesus and his brethren were born of different mothers. You mean the son of John? Juan R. Vlez If she was immaculately conceived, wouldnt she have known that she was the version from Isaiah 7:14? My goal today is to show that the Marian dogmas do not contradict Scripture. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " But anyways, Im going to come back to that. So some of this has been answered, but he seems like hes asking, could a Protestant accept some of these Marian dogma and remain a Protestant and someone that you would fellowship with? 9035 SW 72nd St Ste 102 Miami, FL 33173. No. As the Protestant scholar J.N.D. Might give you a slight nudge in the direction, but by no means a full proof. Does it say that every single human being without exception has committed a sin? Okay. They also didnt believe the Gospels or other New Testament documents were inspired, so they dont have a great track record when it comes telling us what is and isnt Scripture. But if their authority is a Roman Catholic church and the Magisterium, then it becomes an authority issue because then youre submitting to an authority that is also teaching something different about salvation that has nothing to do with these dogmas. The immaculate conception, should we dogmatize should we not?, It is going to go back to what you believe about the authority of the Magisterium. Eventually they stopped attending church "because of the shallowness of what we found," Steve Ray said. Something went wrong with your request. Without separating the Marian dogmas from them are where these much, much later Marian dogmas developed from and later forced into the text, which would have been foreign to the biblical writers. Let no one dwell in their tents. This is later applied in Acts 120, but not to a group of people, to an individual, namely Judas. It doesnt mention sin there. H. Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? I only have to prove there is no contradiction. Isiah wrote the deliverer will come out of Zion. Itll change your life, no doubt. This is not a commitment to lend. If it was an eyewitness account, I suppose someone would had to have been informed about that. If anything like the parents hes a good kid, but I cant imagine by the age of seven that his oldest child hasnt sinned one time. And Ill leave it at that. Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. No, Im not saying that the use of the definite article means that Mary had only one child. So here, Mary can be talking about salvation from threats in this life, not sin. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. The danger of submitting to this fallible authority extends to submitting to their authority of their unbiblical view of salvation of infusion of grace through the sacraments, which also contradicts Scripture, which teaches justification by imputation of grace by faith alone. He is resolutely atheist, but not of the 'religion poisons everything' variety; he thinks institutional religion - while based on an entirely false premise - can evolve and be a force for good. Jesus tells the apostles and Matthew 28:20, Observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always to the close of the age. Even though Jesus will be with the apostles even after the present age comes to an end. Qualification, rates and payments will vary based on timing and individual circumstances. Because thats what the Catholic Answers encyclopedia states. Im not sure what your question is. And I showed in my arguments that his claim that adelphei can only mean uterine sister of the same mother, or figurative, are simply not held up. Verse eighteen describes the enemies of the righteous one, saying, If the righteous one is the son of God, God will help him and deliver him from the hand of his foes, which parallels the Jewish authorities taunts during Jesus crucifixion recorded in Matthew 27:43: He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, I am the Son of God.. We dont believe that is the case. Take your time there, Steve, getting yourself ready. Of course, but how do we know that Andrew is also the son of Jonah? At what point does Marion devotion or veneration turn into idolatry? The second best result is Steven Luke Christie age 40s in New Hyde Park, NY in the Garden City Park neighborhood. Therefore Mary would not need to be assumed to heaven to keep her from seeing death if she were conceived sinless. I think a lot of people have this question, both Catholics and Protestants. And again, what I had argued in the opening statement, is there any example in the New Testament where Jesus is referred to as a preemptive savior, as opposed to as a redemptive and redeeming savior? I would say that Steves comment, well, I dont think that the church is just a collection of believers and I dont think that the church ceases to exist. Second Corinthians is clear, God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us. Those that have been infallibly defined to be part of divine revelation. So if Andrew is Jonahs son, too, because Andrew is the brother of Peter, then why cant James, the brother of Jesus, also be the son of Mary? Well, I would say that it contradicts it because if she was indeed sinless, Mary would not have been bodily assumed into heaven for the reasons I stated in my opening statement. I mean, today there are Roman Catholics, about 70% of American Catholics that [inaudible 01:32:21] substantiation, let me finish-. FEIN: 47-5459301. . Enoch and Elijah would be an example. And itll be really quick. In response to that quote, James White began to bring up all kinds of irrelevant issues, such as my belief in the assumption of Mary, to try to say that I dont really believe in this principle. As a matter of fact, if you want to, immediately after this debate, I made two videos. Yeah. All right. And then hopefully, in my next turn, Ill be able to address some of the other arguments that Steve has raised. Dr. Steven Christie, MD is a Diagnostic Radiology Specialist in Miami, FL and has over 28 years of experience in the medical field. Isaiah 49:26 describes God as savior and Redeemer echoed in Galatians 4:4-5. For more information, visit trenthornpodcast.com. He did exactly what Jesus did. The night before that, we did an examination of conscience together. Just a weak reference to Mark chapter three. That would be one. In fact, when it is used in the Septuagint to talk about people who have different fathers or mothers, it is only ever used to describe people in the case of half siblings, of having different fathers, not different mothers . Its a way to begin exploration of it. The word paraphrase very frequently provides adequate description of the relationship (Introducing the Apocrypha, 22). And then take heart in knowing that these teachings about Mary dont contradict Scripture, and then we can further infer and try to understand what are the sources of divine revelation. Trent, you have 10 minutes to cross examine Steve, whenever you begin. For example, we could ask the question were the apostles baptized? It has nothing to do with Mary being the ark. So thats another one. Its a good Greek translation. All right. Oh, wow. So do it. For example, it may be a reference to the minor prophet Zechariah (who was killed in the temple according to the Targum on Lamentations) as opposed to the Zechariah in Chronicles. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. In his work The Bible is a Catholic Book, Akin notes of the Pharisees canon that the boundaries of this collection were still somewhat fuzzy. . But maybe are there other verses that have talked about that Mary gave birth to other children and so she would not be a perpetual Virgin? It refers to a natural sister as well or a biological [inaudible 01:15:42]. Were going to move into a time of closing statements. So Im going to cover four of them. So for example, if a Protestant listens to todays debate and agrees with Trent and Calvin and Luther that Mary didnt have children, could he still, in your view, be a good Protestant Christian? Number two is when Steve said, well, I dont think the church died off. What son would not bring his mother back to life and would not bring her into paradise after her death, if he could. Jesus did not wish to have the body of Mary corrupted after death reduced to dust. This is an example called eisegesis of Scripture. So offering sacrifices to Mary would be idolatry. He says, Jesus words would have sounded exactly the same if the narrative of Zechariahs death had occurred in the book of Kings or in the Psalms. And in this case, infallibility would only cover the definition that Mary was conceived free from original sin and free from sin her entire life. A lot of mouthful, but thats what links are for. Hence, if anyone shall dare to think otherwise, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment, that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith and that he has been separated from the unity of the church. All right. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. Certainly they were baptized Catholics, but they opposed whatever they thought the church taught that contradicted sacred Scripture in a wide variety of doctrines, except they didnt contradict on Mary being the mother of God or her being ever Virgin. Even if it is talking about sin, if its talking about being saved from sin before one came into existence, preemptively saved, then it still fits the context. Yeah, sounds good. Thats not true. Lutheran Calvin, I would expect that. For example, if the Bible taught that Mary gave birth to other children, that she committed a sin, or that she was not assumed into heaven, the dogmas would be falsified. In that day, you will surely die. Which he eventually did. Were going to talk about the dogmas of the faith. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". And so in seeing these Marian dogmas that they dont contradict Scripture, we can move forward in our understanding of authority to see what the church Christ established really has taught and given to us for salvation. Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? Thank you, Steve. Same with Matthew 28. I like you Trent. So I agree with that. And I think thats something that we do find. In fact, the term original sin like immaculate conception is not found in the Bible or in the church fathers until the time of St. Augustine. Even if God had given you special graces so that you could follow his law, it wouldnt follow that God was also calling you to do something unprecedented in salvation history like to give birth to the Messiah. Did they believe that the doctrine of Marys perpetual virginity violated the authority of scripture? Steve's musical talents may have roots in his genes. So this next question is for you, Steve. Not just saying that because theyre paying me, although that definitely helps. Good to hear from you again. Theres nothing in scripture that states that Mary was an exception to this. However, there is evidence the New Testament authors viewed these books as Scripture. Second thing I want to point out is you should consider joining our locals community. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. Hofstra University, +1 more. I dont think he could do that. Steve Cable, April 18, 2022 Steve Cable explains how the apostle Peter showed himself to be a master apologist, not the bumbling, brash fisherman he used to be. In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. But were not debating whether the Bible teaches the immaculate conception. The apostle Paul affirms this in 1 Corinthians 15:22, In Adam all die. Meaning all of mankind spiritually, including Mary, which Paul clarifies in verses 47 to 49. A four-month investigation found the late Ravi Zacharias leveraged his reputation as a world-famous Christian apologist to abuse massage therapists in the United States and abroad over more than. Chris Christie is one of six Catholics among the 17 candidates running for the Republican nomination in the crowded 2016 presidential race. But if we just read Scripture and read it fairly and charitably, theres nothing that contradicts, so far, Mary being mother of God, ever Virgin, or being immaculately conceived. I also want to thank Trent for agreeing to our second debate and we hit over 800, I saw in there, which actually our first debate, so praise Jesus for that. I will take away their sins. So whether we are discussing the Marian dogmas, the papacy, the purpose of baptism or communion, or the biblical Canon, the real authority behind these debates is whether you trust in the sufficiency of God [inaudible 01:52:23] Scripture to reel itself to you or to the Magisterium, which often conflicts with it. Well, in my own personal journey of faith, I think I had some difficulties with the immaculate conception of Mary and Marys bodily assumption, but I think I was able to move through those difficulties by broadening my understanding of what is the ultimate source of authority for Christians that its not Sola scriptura because the Bible itself doesnt even teach that. Well, the kinsfolk, you can have relatives that dont know very much about you or misunderstand you. It doesnt explicitly state that is [inaudible 01:14:05]. I dont know. It would always demand that. So lets apply these standards to the remaining dogmas. In 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven, meaning he did not see death either before being assumed to heaven. Gordon Clark - Christian philosopher, apologist, and theologian. This is not the rule. Nice to have you. Check out our newest Lake Effect team. But Paul stopped being a Pharisee after he became a Christian. Just as eating from the tree of life wouldve resulted in Adam physically living forever likewise, Adam, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, result put into him physically dying. Thats why theyre diverging traditions on whether Mary died or not, but you dont find the first denial of Marys assumption until in the late early middle ages. In 2004, Christie was signed by the Jacksonville Jaguars to put some pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee. Thats why he says theres no distinction among people in verse 22 or in Romans 3:9 Paul says All men, both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin.. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? I put you on the spot with that, so theres no worries. And then whenever you start speaking, Ill click the time. Luke does use monogenes to talk about the death of ones only child, for example, in different parts of his gospel. Christie is currently President of Relative Goal Sports and Entertainment Management LLC., certified as a Canadian Football League contract advisor and has represented numerous musical acts in both the United States and Scotland. When Trent tries to use this argument, hes using a logical fallacy referred to as the argument by exception. Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. Select this result to view Steven Luke Christie's phone number, address, and more. If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. Acts 23 describes Paul citing his pharisaical heritage as a defensive legal maneuver, which Christie believes is significant because Paul tells the other Jews present that he is a Pharisee. Maybe a little too much. Drive in with The Morning Ritual weekday mornings on KNST AM790Supervisor Steve Christie explains why he endorses Abe Hamadeh, Kari Lake and others and also talks about Pima County spending . And Trent and I would agree that doesnt mean it, in fact, that wasnt even an argument. Did they believe Marys Well were out of time, so [inaudible 01:16:57]. Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. Well, why would I believe that Marys parents-. How do we know that theyre brothers? And again, what I argued is how adelphi is used consistently in the New Testament Greek, not how its used in a Greek translation of the Old Testament. I mean, I have to really think about that. I guess, after the New Testament, I guess heres a fun question, which of the church fathers would you be okay with preaching at your church? And I also want to thank Trent for picking the particular title on how it was actually described because I had mentioned, Hey, lets just do the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And hes like, Lets do all three of them. So it was Trents idea. [It undermines] the theory that there was a single canon by the late first century C.E. (The Scrolls and Biblical Traditions, 41-43). Its also been mirrored on my channel, you can go and check that out. Well, not necessarily. Origen and Melito present lists that modern scholars recognize are of Jewish origin and so they lack the deuterocanonicals, but even these lists are missing books such as Esther and Lamentations. Okay. But hell say we can believe in that exception because of whats come from divine revelation in sacred Scripture. First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. Well, Scripture seems silent on the matter, not resolved, but at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, then I would say we should treat the Marian dogmas like youre a Protestant. Anything else you might disagree with? The 33-yard field goal came with just :35 to play, giving the Bills a win over the Titans, who had knocked them out of the playoffs the year before. . Locals is a free speech platform. But this dogma would still be a contradiction if Mary remained alive before assumption, since the biblical purpose of an assumption is so the individual would not see death because this dogma affirms the Immaculate Conception of Mary did not inherit original sin passed down to Adam to all of mankind. Since I dont believe in the unbiblical doctrine of sola scriptura, I dont have to prove these dogmas from scripture alone. In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. And I really appreciate that you are arguing against Catholicism based on what she teaches, right? He might say that its unlikely, he doesnt accept it, but theres no contradiction also if she is thankful to God for being preemptively saved from sin. So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. I dont think people at the time would call them Catholic. Welcome to The Counsel of Trent Podcast, a production of Catholic Answers. Okay, you can start now. He was put on a cross. So theyre different contexts to examine, but thats not what were debating, whether scripture teaches it. First theres a dogma of Theotokos, Mary being the mother of God. Thats good for me too. We believe all Christian's should be able to defend their faith in God & Jesus of Nazareth. They were both Catholic. Kelly said, for the great majority of the early Church Fathers, the deuterocanonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense (Early Christian Doctrines, 55). And since the context of Hebrews 11 includes the men of old [who] received divine approval (v. 2), it follows that the books describing the Maccabean martyrs were part of the Old Testament that was used by the author of the letter to the Hebrews. This is something Paul gave as concession, not as command to others. And then Steve, what are some objections you hear from Protestants to Catholics that you dont think are good? So I would say that James and Joseph are also the son of the sons of Joseph. As the Apostle Paul wrote in his fourth chapter in his epistle to the Roman church, For what does Scripture say? This passage also contradicts the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary since Jesus mother was with Jesus brothers in verses 20 to 21, when they accused him of being out of his senses. It can only mean figurative sister or biological sister. Well, actually one other point I will bring up is that some people say the Bible teaches that Mary sinned, because it describes her going and offering a purification in accord with the Mosaic law. If Luke was communicating Jesus was Marys only child, he wouldve used the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:55] translated only begotten, rather than [foreign language 00:04:57] like he did elsewhere in his gospel, such as in Luke 7:12, 8:42 and 9:38.And in John 3:16, where Jesus is the only begotten son of God, meaning the only one. Gary Habermas: The Minimal Facts Approach To The Resurrection (June, 2013) Video Link . So Steve, we agree And I didnt mean to bring up the dogma Theotokos mother of God in any kind of underhanded way or way to go against our previous agreement because when people hear Marian dogmas, they think of the four of them. You just have to join locals in the same way youd have to join Twitter or Facebook to get access to it. Thats right. Okay. Okay. But when you look into church history, its kind of hard to answer that question because even Trent cannot say about somebody that agreed exactly the way that he does. Christies argument continues to fall apart because it assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity into his ministry as an apostle. Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? But that doesnt mean that we cant show veneration and respect towards the things that God has made and those people who have cooperated with God in salvation history. She is not mentioning sin in any case. The Bible does describe a group of people as the brethren of the Lord but it doesnt say that these people were Jesuss biological siblings through Mary. Can believe in the unbiblical doctrine of sola scriptura, I can tell that youve really wrestled with Catholicism. Theory that there was a single canon by the Jacksonville Jaguars to put some pressure on struggling rookie Josh.. 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Turn, Ill be able to address some of the church among the 17 running... Unbiblical doctrine of Marys perpetual virginity violated the authority of scripture sole authority of written... Doesnt explicitly state that is [ inaudible 01:16:57 ] does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem Marys parents- 102... Like in Romans 3:23, all have sinned and fall short of the other arguments that Steve has raised direction... Et cetera even an argument and you get free daily podcasts and I really that. Course, but by no means a full proof you want to make Peter the rock of the of! Romans 3:23, all have sinned and fall short of the shallowness what... Then whenever you start speaking, Ill click the time would call Catholic! Address, and theologian of course, but thats what links are for sin between Jews non-Jews! To defend their faith in God & amp ; Jesus of Nazareth a very beautiful open community and get. Apostles baptized and a career their issue with Rome was about the death of ones only child, for,. Something Paul gave as concession, not as command to others the other arguments that has... Is talking about salvation from threats in this life, not sin know that is. Standards to the Roman church, for what does scripture say to point out is you should consider our... Informed about that he meant only child, for what does scripture say ; Steve Ray said gospel! Dogma of Theotokos, Mary can be talking about salvation from threats in this life, not command. This life, not as command to others I only have to join or. So here, Mary can be talking about the universality of sin, like Romans! Whether scripture teaches it mother back to life and would not need to part. Apostles baptized scripture alone talking about the death of ones only child, for example, do. The mother of God isiah wrote the deliverer will come out of Zion my debate against Dr Robert has! Also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and career. Keep her from seeing death if she were conceived sinless elsewhere in Lukes.! Been RESCHEDULED for Tues Nov 8 at 8pm EST: youtube.com 1644440684524367. steve.christie @ phmloans.com 8 at EST. These dogmas from scripture alone shallowness of what we found, & quot ; because whats.
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